lincolnshirebellydancer.myfreeforum.org

admin · Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: The Photo and Video Debate

HELP!! I need your input!!

The question has arisen (I got my wrist slapped) about asking for consent before posting videos taken at haflas on Youtube and linking them to LBD.

My position has been that A) Any public performance is in the public domain unless there's a specific request not to take or publish photos or videos.
B) Technically there is no difference between still photos and video clips. Nor is there a difference between posting on LBD and posting on Youtube ... they're both accessible to anyone with an internet connection.
C) If I have to ask consent to publish videos the same applies to photos. It therefore follows that I can leave my camera at home in future and enjoy the performances instead of watching them all through a one and a half inch digital screen.

Quite honestly I'd be happy to save myself hours and hours of time by NOT having photos and video clips to sort and upload after every hafla I go to.

Some people love seeing their photos online, some apparently have problems with that. I need to come up with a consistent policy; your views will help me determine what that policy will be.
What do YOU think?

Beatrice · Joined: 08 Nov 2008 Posts: 1 Location: Nottingham, UK

Hello

My partner and I film lot's of hafla's and events and
are aware that many people are camera shy and also
might not want there photos or videos published
so what we usually do at the beginning of the show
is get the host to announce that we are filming the
event and that if anyone does not wish to be filmed
to let us know before hand.

There was an event recently where one of the troupes were concerned
about their performance not being as good as they would have liked
and so we are allowing them to see the full edited version and if they
don't like it then we will simply cut their performance out of it.

I personally don't usually upload a video of someone else on to any websites
without their go ahead
If someone posted a video of me, It would not bother me
but then I have been filmed at so many different events so I am used to it

however, I am not so quick to upload my own
videos unless I think I performed well and don't look too bad
so with that in mind, where possible, I allow other people the chance
to view their performance first.

But yes, any public performance is indeed in the public domain unless
there's a specific request not to take or publish photos or videos.

My asking people if they are happy with their performance is purely
a personal choice and probably comes from my being a performer
and knowing that I am not happy with every single performance I do
and certainly every now and again, there are ones that I would
probably prefer not be repeated in cyberspace.
Thankfully so far very few!

With regards to posting photos, I personally don't see any problem with posting pics
of an event on your site however some people can be funny about it and so again,
mentioning that you are going to post some pics and
then if anyone wants theirs removing then they are welcome to contact you
via your website. Otherwise mention it at the event
and ask them if they mind or if they would rather see the photos first.

I have come across a lot of people that appear somewhat wary about videographers
and camera men, no idea why!
They seem to think that we have some sort of hidden agenda.

I guess for those of us who's houses are full of all sorts of cameras and
boxes of wires and computers and so on, It is perfectly normal everyday
thing to have that sort of equipment around us
but to other people, the idea of being filmed, especially while
performing, is a much bigger thing.
Many people just turn to jelly at the idea of being on camera if they are not used to it.

So in conclusion, I would say

Where possible, give people the chance to decide for themselves whether or
not they want photos or videos of them to be uploaded.

Communicate with the public at the events and let them know what it is you
are doing and what your intentions are.

Perhaps produce a small flyer with some info on
and put them on the tables at the events, that way you are giving opportunity to
opt out of being filmed or photographed while at the
same time promoting your work and your website!

Hope that helped!!!

Claire · Joined: 28 Mar 2008 Posts: 10

Hi Mark

Hmmmm... Tricky one.

Its a shame we live in such a PC world these days! I for one regularly check LBD (make it your homepage guys, its much easier!) and ALWAYS check the photogallerys, news and reviews after an event. Its brilliant to see photos of the things we attend, not only to see performances that you may have missed, pictures of friends you may have not had chance to catch up with, but also to get someone elses perspective of the whole night!

Personally, I think that if you are "performing" you are putting yourself in the position to allow people to take photos and videos and thus providing your consent by the very act itself. However, if you are "present" then maybe it could cause problems for people if they are not made aware that photos and vidoes could be published... I think that in such cases a flyer or announcement asking for people who do not give their consent to make themselves aware to you, should be enough.

We have a great relaxed atmosphere at our belly events that are all about coming together, enjoying the sisterhood that this dance brings in an un threatening environment and just having a go!

Lets try and preserve that.

CLaire

PaulineQu · Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Nottingham

I kind of agree with the last post from Claire. If you are performing at an event then you are putting yourself in the public eye and therefore it is a little bit odd to then say you dont want to have an images either still or moving seen by anyone else. On the other hand if you are just free dancing or attending the event then you have a right to say if images of you are used.

Personally I think it would be a huge shame if you didn't continue with your fabulous record of events both big and small. I love checking your wonderful website for pics, news, views and reviews. The videos are a welcome addition, I think they are a great idea.

I agree with the previous posts about a leaflet or announcement at the beginning of a hafla stating that you will be taking photos and that anyone who doesnt want their pic taken should let you know before hand. I also take your point that it then becomes more of an unpaid job than an enjoyable hobby.

Its a shame, Mark, I hope you dont lose heart, we all love and respect what you and Connie do for the belly dance community both locally and further afield and hope that your camera doesnt get left at home. . . . . .
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Be Afraid.......

maz · Joined: 26 Mar 2008 Posts: 16

I totally agree with Claire + Pauline...and I think it is really sad that someone would go to that extreme…. I (for one) would be absolutely gutted if the photos had to stop!! I think u do an absolutely cracking job of capturing us all in action…. what the hell is this person doing belly-dancing anyway if she doesn’t want anyone looking at her? That’s the whole point?! You could do what is suggest above (ask/announce at each hafla) but it’s a shame you would have to do that… Anyway if you want for’s or against’s and am DEFINITELY FOR PHOTOS!! And agree with the girls above.... its about sisterhood and getting together and having a good time.…not pathetic petty things like this….

Keep up the good work hon – U do a marvellous job!! XX

Von · Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 1 Location: Nottinghamshire

Hi Mark

I totally agree with Maz and Pauline on this one. If you dance and perform in front of an audience you should EXPECT to be videoed and photographed.

If this woman can't handle that then she should NOT be dancing.

I dance out with my troupe Shimmy Armageddon and Paulines' Tribe and of course with our Morris group Black Pig Border. It would be a bit of a sad affair if we told our audiences not to photograph and video us. (With the morris group we always make a bit of a show of it and tell the audience that they can take pictures for a quid but it's a fiver if we're moving )

I am always coming across photo's and video of us on the internet, most of which I didn't even know had been filmed. It is always a nice surprise and yes, admittedly some of them are not always flattering, but hey...I get over it.

Your Photos and Videos are superb and you must keep up the good work.
Don't let one idiot spoil it for the rest of us. You may also like to point out to this camera shy flower that there is probably hundreds of photos of her on the internet taken by other people that she hasn't found yet. It might keep her busy for a few years looking for them all and keep her off your back.

twinkle toes · Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Posts: 7

For amateur dancers or performers I can see they would enjoy seeing pics and videos etc. Unfortunately for more famous or professional dancers it is a little more complex as they are being paid to give that performance and then it isn't always appropriate to publish footage and pictures of that performance which technically belongs to someone else so the subjects permission ought to be sought. It is a very grey area and not illegal just a courtesy I suppose to seek permission prior to filming (not after). Personally I hate being photographed or filmed (unless pre warned) but that's my own personal phobia about my image and lack of self confidence, nothing to do with being precious about my dancing.
I do however, (because of how I feel and also because a student may go on to be famous in the future etc etc, also I teach children and ask parental consent) insist that all my students sign a disclaimer to give me permission to use as I feel fit their images either on the internet, tv, poster, advertising etc if they are unhappy with this then they sign to say so and their image is removed.
Please please don't stop your good work though Mark, the majority of dancers love seeing themselves, as that's something you can never see....is yourself!

demolitia · Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 2

Mark!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont stop taking pictures!!! I rely on you and folk like you to get shots when we are out dancing. Im far too busy having fun and never remember my camera!!!I need you to keep coming, lordy, Id pay your entry to cover us!!! I think its silly that people should protest so! Whats the big issue? If you dont want to be looked at, dont buy those beautiful clothes and go for hours of practice!!!Whats it all about Alfie??? Mark, please dont stop doing your thing.
If you do, I will collect everyone that needs you and come round and fetch you out!!!!With your cameras, ddead or alive you will come with us!!!

Girls, get the point, you perform in public after hours of work and endless amounts of money spent, to SHOW OFF!!! This man is just doing what he likes, and us a BIG favour. FOR FREE!!! Please girls, chill out a little, his shots are cool, not pervy or nasty, they are well presented too!

Every pic and vid I have seen of his has been carefully edited and presented in a very professional manner! Let him be, .... no... encourage him!! If you see him, ask him to do your troupe or tribe and pget his pictures out there. Lets give him the credit he deserves!!!

IM WITH YOU MARK 100%
(And if anyone wants to argue about it...Im here!!!)[/img]
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Im so mad about BTS!!!It Rocks!!

Anju · Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 1

If you perform you are there to be seen. Simple.
If you don't want to have photos taken at the local events then the perform should come to you as everyone by now knows who you are ( Mark you're famous) and they should ask for you not to take photos.

For the events that happen locally it shouldn't be such a big issue. If the performer is famous or what ever then fair enough get permission. All of us are more infamous than anything. And I love looking at the photos and videos on here. Its a great way to see bits of the night I missed whilst getting ready and dancing myself.

You starting this website and all the hard work you put in to is amazing and much appreacaited. you do this all as a hobby and it should be fun. Not hard work or a grind.
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Anju Smile

Dance likes there no tomorrow

admin · Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject:

Thanks Ladies, I appreciate the support.

I think I've raised an emotive issue here and if I step back and try to look at it from the other person's point of view I can see how their thinking may have gone. Not everyone has been dancing since the age of the dinosaurs and many people don't understand that a public performance is "public" and that photos and videos shot in such a venue (where no ban is in place) are fair game. You tube videos have acquired a bit of a reputation and there is always talk about videos being used without consent when posted in breach of copyright. I suspect that the individual(s) concerned have misconceptions of the actual situation.

So.... Please put the knives away! We've had some great feedback and would like more but I'm not out to get anyone lynched!

As Twinkeltoes said, if there's a professional "star" soloist it's common courtesy to ask. Most agree without hesitation because it promotes their business. With children the situation is different and I won't knowingly publish a photo or video with a recognisable child in it without specific parental consent. (Twinkletoes, you dance beautifully and always leave me in awe so your camera shyness is misplaced, even though it's not unusual.)

Keep the input coming in! I'm finding it very valuable.