The Photo and Video Debate

admin · The Photo and Video Debate

HELP!! I need your input!!

The question has arisen (I got my wrist slapped) about asking for consent before posting videos taken at haflas on Youtube and linking them to LBD.

My position has been that A) Any public performance is in the public domain unless there's a specific request not to take or publish photos or videos.
B) Technically there is no difference between still photos and video clips. Nor is there a difference between posting on LBD and posting on Youtube ... they're both accessible to anyone with an internet connection.
C) If I have to ask consent to publish videos the same applies to photos. It therefore follows that I can leave my camera at home in future and enjoy the performances instead of watching them all through a one and a half inch digital screen.

Quite honestly I'd be happy to save myself hours and hours of time by NOT having photos and video clips to sort and upload after every hafla I go to.

Some people love seeing their photos online, some apparently have problems with that. I need to come up with a consistent policy; your views will help me determine what that policy will be.
What do YOU think?

Beatrice · The Photo and Video Debate

Hello

My partner and I film lot's of hafla's and events and
are aware that many people are camera shy and also
might not want there photos or videos published
so what we usually do at the beginning of the show
is get the host to announce that we are filming the
event and that if anyone does not wish to be filmed
to let us know before hand.

There was an event recently where one of the troupes were concerned
about their performance not being as good as they would have liked
and so we are allowing them to see the full edited version and if they
don't like it then we will simply cut their performance out of it.

I personally don't usually upload a video of someone else on to any websites
without their go ahead
If someone posted a video of me, It would not bother me
but then I have been filmed at so many different events so I am used to it

however, I am not so quick to upload my own
videos unless I think I performed well and don't look too bad
so with that in mind, where possible, I allow other people the chance
to view their performance first.

But yes, any public performance is indeed in the public domain unless
there's a specific request not to take or publish photos or videos.

My asking people if they are happy with their performance is purely
a personal choice and probably comes from my being a performer
and knowing that I am not happy with every single performance I do
and certainly every now and again, there are ones that I would
probably prefer not be repeated in cyberspace.
Thankfully so far very few!

With regards to posting photos, I personally don't see any problem with posting pics
of an event on your site however some people can be funny about it and so again,
mentioning that you are going to post some pics and
then if anyone wants theirs removing then they are welcome to contact you
via your website. Otherwise mention it at the event
and ask them if they mind or if they would rather see the photos first.

I have come across a lot of people that appear somewhat wary about videographers
and camera men, no idea why!
They seem to think that we have some sort of hidden agenda.

I guess for those of us who's houses are full of all sorts of cameras and
boxes of wires and computers and so on, It is perfectly normal everyday
thing to have that sort of equipment around us
but to other people, the idea of being filmed, especially while
performing, is a much bigger thing.
Many people just turn to jelly at the idea of being on camera if they are not used to it.

So in conclusion, I would say

Where possible, give people the chance to decide for themselves whether or
not they want photos or videos of them to be uploaded.

Communicate with the public at the events and let them know what it is you
are doing and what your intentions are.

Perhaps produce a small flyer with some info on
and put them on the tables at the events, that way you are giving opportunity to
opt out of being filmed or photographed while at the
same time promoting your work and your website!

Hope that helped!!!

Claire

Hi Mark

Hmmmm... Tricky one.

Its a shame we live in such a PC world these days! I for one regularly check LBD (make it your homepage guys, its much easier!) and ALWAYS check the photogallerys, news and reviews after an event. Its brilliant to see photos of the things we attend, not only to see performances that you may have missed, pictures of friends you may have not had chance to catch up with, but also to get someone elses perspective of the whole night!

Personally, I think that if you are "performing" you are putting yourself in the position to allow people to take photos and videos and thus providing your consent by the very act itself. However, if you are "present" then maybe it could cause problems for people if they are not made aware that photos and vidoes could be published... I think that in such cases a flyer or announcement asking for people who do not give their consent to make themselves aware to you, should be enough.

We have a great relaxed atmosphere at our belly events that are all about coming together, enjoying the sisterhood that this dance brings in an un threatening environment and just having a go!

Lets try and preserve that.

CLaire

PaulineQu

I kind of agree with the last post from Claire. If you are performing at an event then you are putting yourself in the public eye and therefore it is a little bit odd to then say you dont want to have an images either still or moving seen by anyone else. On the other hand if you are just free dancing or attending the event then you have a right to say if images of you are used.

Personally I think it would be a huge shame if you didn't continue with your fabulous record of events both big and small. I love checking your wonderful website for pics, news, views and reviews. The videos are a welcome addition, I think they are a great idea.

I agree with the previous posts about a leaflet or announcement at the beginning of a hafla stating that you will be taking photos and that anyone who doesnt want their pic taken should let you know before hand. I also take your point that it then becomes more of an unpaid job than an enjoyable hobby.

Its a shame, Mark, I hope you dont lose heart, we all love and respect what you and Connie do for the belly dance community both locally and further afield and hope that your camera doesnt get left at home. . . . . .

maz

I totally agree with Claire + Pauline...and I think it is really sad that someone would go to that extreme…. I (for one) would be absolutely gutted if the photos had to stop!! I think u do an absolutely cracking job of capturing us all in action…. what the hell is this person doing belly-dancing anyway if she doesn’t want anyone looking at her? That’s the whole point?! You could do what is suggest above (ask/announce at each hafla) but it’s a shame you would have to do that… Anyway if you want for’s or against’s and am DEFINITELY FOR PHOTOS!! And agree with the girls above.... its about sisterhood and getting together and having a good time.…not pathetic petty things like this….

Keep up the good work hon – U do a marvellous job!! XX

Von

Hi Mark

I totally agree with Maz and Pauline on this one. If you dance and perform in front of an audience you should EXPECT to be videoed and photographed.

If this woman can't handle that then she should NOT be dancing.

I dance out with my troupe Shimmy Armageddon and Paulines' Tribe and of course with our Morris group Black Pig Border. It would be a bit of a sad affair if we told our audiences not to photograph and video us. (With the morris group we always make a bit of a show of it and tell the audience that they can take pictures for a quid but it's a fiver if we're moving )

I am always coming across photo's and video of us on the internet, most of which I didn't even know had been filmed. It is always a nice surprise and yes, admittedly some of them are not always flattering, but hey...I get over it.

Your Photos and Videos are superb and you must keep up the good work.
Don't let one idiot spoil it for the rest of us. You may also like to point out to this camera shy flower that there is probably hundreds of photos of her on the internet taken by other people that she hasn't found yet. It might keep her busy for a few years looking for them all and keep her off your back.

twinkle toes · photo & video debate

For amateur dancers or performers I can see they would enjoy seeing pics and videos etc. Unfortunately for more famous or professional dancers it is a little more complex as they are being paid to give that performance and then it isn't always appropriate to publish footage and pictures of that performance which technically belongs to someone else so the subjects permission ought to be sought. It is a very grey area and not illegal just a courtesy I suppose to seek permission prior to filming (not after). Personally I hate being photographed or filmed (unless pre warned) but that's my own personal phobia about my image and lack of self confidence, nothing to do with being precious about my dancing.
I do however, (because of how I feel and also because a student may go on to be famous in the future etc etc, also I teach children and ask parental consent) insist that all my students sign a disclaimer to give me permission to use as I feel fit their images either on the internet, tv, poster, advertising etc if they are unhappy with this then they sign to say so and their image is removed.
Please please don't stop your good work though Mark, the majority of dancers love seeing themselves, as that's something you can never see....is yourself!

demolitia · Photos and Videos

Mark!!! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont stop taking pictures!!! I rely on you and folk like you to get shots when we are out dancing. Im far too busy having fun and never remember my camera!!!I need you to keep coming, lordy, Id pay your entry to cover us!!! I think its silly that people should protest so! Whats the big issue? If you dont want to be looked at, dont buy those beautiful clothes and go for hours of practice!!!Whats it all about Alfie??? Mark, please dont stop doing your thing.
If you do, I will collect everyone that needs you and come round and fetch you out!!!!With your cameras, ddead or alive you will come with us!!!

Girls, get the point, you perform in public after hours of work and endless amounts of money spent, to SHOW OFF!!! This man is just doing what he likes, and us a BIG favour. FOR FREE!!! Please girls, chill out a little, his shots are cool, not pervy or nasty, they are well presented too!

Every pic and vid I have seen of his has been carefully edited and presented in a very professional manner! Let him be, .... no... encourage him!! If you see him, ask him to do your troupe or tribe and pget his pictures out there. Lets give him the credit he deserves!!!

IM WITH YOU MARK 100%
(And if anyone wants to argue about it...Im here!!!)[/img]

Anju

If you perform you are there to be seen. Simple.
If you don't want to have photos taken at the local events then the perform should come to you as everyone by now knows who you are ( Mark you're famous) and they should ask for you not to take photos.

For the events that happen locally it shouldn't be such a big issue. If the performer is famous or what ever then fair enough get permission. All of us are more infamous than anything. And I love looking at the photos and videos on here. Its a great way to see bits of the night I missed whilst getting ready and dancing myself.

You starting this website and all the hard work you put in to is amazing and much appreacaited. you do this all as a hobby and it should be fun. Not hard work or a grind.

admin

Thanks Ladies, I appreciate the support.

I think I've raised an emotive issue here and if I step back and try to look at it from the other person's point of view I can see how their thinking may have gone. Not everyone has been dancing since the age of the dinosaurs and many people don't understand that a public performance is "public" and that photos and videos shot in such a venue (where no ban is in place) are fair game. You tube videos have acquired a bit of a reputation and there is always talk about videos being used without consent when posted in breach of copyright. I suspect that the individual(s) concerned have misconceptions of the actual situation.

So.... Please put the knives away! We've had some great feedback and would like more but I'm not out to get anyone lynched!

As Twinkeltoes said, if there's a professional "star" soloist it's common courtesy to ask. Most agree without hesitation because it promotes their business. With children the situation is different and I won't knowingly publish a photo or video with a recognisable child in it without specific parental consent. (Twinkletoes, you dance beautifully and always leave me in awe so your camera shyness is misplaced, even though it's not unusual.)

Keep the input coming in! I'm finding it very valuable.

Khaleela · Photos and Videos

I appreciate each woman who has participated in this discussion so far. I can understand beginners feeling embarrassed seeing themselves dancing because when I saw the first video of me performing I had mixed feelings. Gee, I looked "large" shall we say. But then, I decided, "So what? That's not what it's about." And I thought of the large women I've seen who are beautiful dancers. Then I thought, "Poor isolations. Your arms look out of control. Your hip drops are sloppy. What's that foot doing?" Well. Okay. Great. So use the video clip of myself to improve my technique! Athletes do it, so why not me? Make lemon-ade out of lemons!
I'm putting all these ideas together and am coming up with (1) Have my students (when and if I start teaching) sign a form that says they allow themselves to be photographed or "camcorded", or not (as TwinkleToes does) (2)At haflas, have an announcement made before it begins that photos and video recording will be taking place by Mark (and possibly others). Have Mark stand to be identified and have ladies who are strongly opposed to the pictures or videos seek Mark out and tell him so. This would only work if he doesn't get a raft of reticent women because he'd have great difficulty keeping track of them. He doesn't know everyone! (3) Little fliers on the tables are a good idea, too. (4) Continue to get permission to photograph or video record professionals as he already does. (5)Hey! I love the idea of other people paying Mark's entry fee or of him not having to pay to get in. We are both retired on partial pensions and it really would help if his entry fees were waved since he spends countless hours keeping the website up-to-date and full of photos (and I spend too much money on belly-dancing!)
Please feel free to share your ideas whatever they are. It's helpful to hear how different people feel and their remedies for the situation.

Siobhan

Keep up the brilliant work you do Mark and Connie

There isn't a woman among us that hasn't at some time looked at a photo or video clip of ourselves and cringed, wishing we were taller/thinner/curvier/ Mona Said, and that please-god-no-one-else-on-this-earth-ever-sees-it!! - it's just human nature. What's important is that all us hafla and event dancers get up there to share dances with friends, have a good time and make people smile. Photos or even film serve as lovely mementos of the time spent doing that, and you do a great service to us by taking them and putting them on the LBD website.

Wink

demolitia · pix

Here here!! So, all in all a good end??? Please keep up the good work Mark & Connie and everyone else at lincoln. You guys are so much fun and I wish there was more of it!

A personal note to the camera man, Thank You for taking the initiative and the photos x

admin

Thanks Demolitia,
I hope it's not the end of the thread yet, I plan to keep it open until the end of November so more people can have their say if they want it.

Contrary opinions are also welcome!

I'm too busy on a big, new, surprise project to have time to work on a photographic policy right now anyway.

(By the way, I can't figure out who you are ... put me out of my misery and send me a private message or an email please!)

PaulineQu

Just a quickie. . . . . . . . we are all captured on camera around 135 times a day, in our cars, shopping, at leisure centres, in the street etc etc. Who knows what happens to those images? Just because they may be captured by figures in authority doesnt necessarily mean they wont be used or abused. I wonder if those people objecting to having their images used also send out 135 letters a day asking for their image to be destroyed. . . . . . . . . . .

hothips · Photo & Video Debate

I think it would be a terrible shame if you were to stop taking pictures and videos during haflas.

I for one frequently visit the LBD website following a hafla. If I have danced at a hafla, its great to see the footage of yourself performing from the audiences prospective. If it is flattering footage you know your time and effort paid off and if its not your best you can observe the bits you didn't like and improve on that for next time.

If you dance in the public arena, you must accept that people will film, or photograph during performances. Most people have cameras on their mobile phones these days, are we to expect these to be handed in on your way in to a hafla.

For those who do not wish to be filmed, what about the flip side? There are some of us who love to be filmed. Are we to be deprived of this because of a few. If you don't want to be filmed just dance at class or at home and let the rest of us enjoy the public domain!!!

twinkle toes · photo and video deabte

Having read and considered everyone's comments so far on this topic I find myself feeling rather controversial! SORRY!!

I have spent many years in the theatrical domain and worked professionally for some time (since before I left college and I'm now an ageing mid 40's). Video clips and still photographs are really quite different subjects. Photograph copyright belongs to the person taking the photo and not the subject in the photo (unless the subject is paying for those pictures and negatives, therefore purchasing copyright). However videos are not still images and when filming a choreography that is copyrighted the person filming and publishing is in breach of that copyright. All my choreo.s are copyrighted and my workshop's and handouts are also copyrighted.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't give permission for them to be filmed and published but I may like to know for what purpose before I say yes!

Having said all that in the case of Mark and LBD I think we know what his work will be used for and his intentions. GO MARK!!!

You Tube, however, has a little wider more varied audience and I'm not sure I would be happy with people publishing 'randomly' either me or my students on here with out asking, this I have still to consider in more depth before I'm decided.
xx

admin

Thank you Twinkletoes, that's what this thread is all about, getting different perspectives! Very Happy

I hadn't considered the question of choreography.

Edited to add:
There's also the music copyright to be considered with video clips. Hmmmmmmmm.....

admin

I posed this question on a couple of the UK.Tribe.net forums and here are some responses from people who don't know me from Adam.

Hi Mark

This is a tricky one. Personally I wouldn't do it either with photos or video clips. Richard (my hubby) often videos at haflas and takes photos. We always ask folks before we publish on our website or onto tribe or youtube. We ask people to let us know if they don't want to be videoed or have photos taken. Usually we know folks so would contact the troupe leader if we wanted to publish later. Could you maybe ask whoever is organising the hafla to let people know that they'll be videoed and that it might be published, asking them to stop you if they're not happy?

I take a sheet of proofs into class and ask people to cross them through if they don't want them used. It works well and has gained people's trust.

Having said all this, I'm not too fussed if people publish photos of me but I do prefer if they check videos with me first. As Pedralta is now producing DVD's there are copyright issues around recorded music and it's just nice to be asked. Also the trouble is when you cock your dancing up (we all do from time to time) and it's live, it's over in an instant. If it's recorded it's there for all eternity.

Some women have backgrounds where domestic violence has been a problem and they are understandably very uncomfortable, even afraid of having their photos published. I met a young dancer in Spain, with such a background ,who was absolutely livid that someone had put a photo of her dancing on the internet.

Some women from a minority backgrounds are given a very hard time, by their own community, for dancing and would not want anyone to know. While they feel safe within the dance community but they don't always tell their family about their hobby.

I'm sure most dancers really appreciate your time and trouble Mark. I know how long it takes to go through footage and edit, matching sound etc. The majority of dancers would be thrilled that you wanted to show off their performances, after all it's very flattering.

But to avoid zils at dawn, I think it's always best to ask. Smile

(By Donna)

My husband takes photos at events and they are offered to the organsers and to individuals to use as they wish. We know we can trust these organisers to use them properly and the performers all gave permission to be photographed.
We have made a DVD of our show presented recently and it is for the performers only. They have been told only if everyone in your scene agrees can that particular scene be put up on a web host. Again everyone knew a DVD was being made and was happy to be filmed but any event I put on will not have a DVD for sale to the public or even the audience and we ask dancers to ask anyone they lend the DVD to to respect our wishes. I for one would object very much to be put on Youtube. I am not ashamed of my dancing but it is for me and for those I performed for at the time.
I know one group of dancers are happy for their "scene " to be shown. they are pro. dancers and there is a point to them promoting their skill.
I think it also important that comments are disabled as these can be vile stemming from the ignorant and malicious . Nice as it is to get compliments belly dancers are targets for the sad little souls who lurk to be nasty.
So I 'd say make sure every dancer you film has given you permission to do so in the first plce and happy that you expose them to the world.

(By Liz)

Hi Mark,

I just wanted to add more comments to your debate. Unfortunately I have experienced people video me performing and then make up copies for their friends. Later I have heard someone say 'Oh I saw you in such a such a video' and I haven't even seen a copy! As a dancer, you want any film of you to present your dance in the best light and if you are not happy with a performance you want to have control over your image. I have also experienced people using video to copy a performance that I have done...but thats just silly because I usually improvise anyway!!!!
When we [me and my firend Diane Petty] present shows we have a strict policy of no videoing except by the offical videographer...this is partly because we usually go on to sell a copy for charity (with all the associated licences). You wouldn't go to a theatre or cinema with a video camera! I also run haflas down here in Dorset and at those we ask any videographer to ask permission of individual dancers before filming them. We leave it up to the camera man and the dancer to negotiate terms!

Hope this helps!

Ellie

admin · Humble Pie

I hate being wrong! Custard and ice cream don't make humble pie taste any better.

However, Nicola Atkin has pointed me to the appropriate legislation on copyright and I am definitely, gloriously and publicly wrong.

In a nutshell and removing all the legalese: .... Still photos are in fact and in law a completely different kettle of warthogs from video clips and movies. I was right that photos taken in a public place are fair game, however when it comes to public performances, video clips are NOT fair game. The performers own the performance (nothing to do with the choreo or the music, those are separate issues) and thus if I or anyone else takes a video clip of a performance without the permission of the performer(s) and publishes it in any way they are breaching the performer's copyright.

I have already emailed the person who passed on the complaint with my humble apology and I unreservedly repeat that apology here. As the old saying goes: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Mark Embarassed

twinkle toes · photo and video debate

Hi Mark
Glad you've sorted you're dilemma I thought it maybe of use to other dramatic and creative people to follow this link http://copyrightservice.co.uk/copyright/p01_uk_copyright_law which might help in finding answers to future copyright issues. Not just about owning their performance but also about documenting or notating their creations and copyrighting them for future etc.
Much Love xx

admin

Thanks for that Twinkle ... I feel an article coming on ....

Claire

Whether right or wrong, we are ALWAYS better off with you leading the way in Lincolnshire Mark!! so at least now we know. Good debate guys
xxx

tatihafsa · hmmmmmmm

Well, I am not sure you can just assume that because someone is dancing in a public event they want to have their photo/video stamped on public places like websites, newletters, etc .

If you are taking photographs and recording an event with this intention, you need to make all participants aware and give them the choice to say 'no' if they don't feel confortable with it. Some people have a real thing about having their picture taken.

Usually most bellydancers are cool with it (as we are a bunch of show offs!!!) but you can't assume everybody is! You need to ask the host of the event to let the dancers know what you're intentions are.

xoxoxoxo

ps: love the forum Mark Smile

Anne Kingston · Photos and video

I have photos and video footage of me all over the net and some of its not great but as a performer that's what you have to expect. Keep taking photos Mark and don't worry to much about it.

I may never have got the photo of me sweeping the floor at JOY in my posh beledi dress if you hadn't been ready with your camera and it makes me laugh everytime I see it.

admin

Thanks Anne, just to reassure you, I took 314 photos at Jacky's Christmas hafla last Friday.

Laughing

I remember that photo, haven't seen it in ages. I may still have it somewhere on my old computer; if so I'll have to dig it out. Twisted Evil

Was it Lubna's beads you were sweeping up when after she shed them all over the dance floor like an agricultural sprinkler system?

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