lincolnshirebellydancer.myfreeforum.org

Khaleela · Joined: 13 Apr 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Gainsborough

I appreciate each woman who has participated in this discussion so far. I can understand beginners feeling embarrassed seeing themselves dancing because when I saw the first video of me performing I had mixed feelings. Gee, I looked "large" shall we say. But then, I decided, "So what? That's not what it's about." And I thought of the large women I've seen who are beautiful dancers. Then I thought, "Poor isolations. Your arms look out of control. Your hip drops are sloppy. What's that foot doing?" Well. Okay. Great. So use the video clip of myself to improve my technique! Athletes do it, so why not me? Make lemon-ade out of lemons!
I'm putting all these ideas together and am coming up with (1) Have my students (when and if I start teaching) sign a form that says they allow themselves to be photographed or "camcorded", or not (as TwinkleToes does) (2)At haflas, have an announcement made before it begins that photos and video recording will be taking place by Mark (and possibly others). Have Mark stand to be identified and have ladies who are strongly opposed to the pictures or videos seek Mark out and tell him so. This would only work if he doesn't get a raft of reticent women because he'd have great difficulty keeping track of them. He doesn't know everyone! (3) Little fliers on the tables are a good idea, too. (4) Continue to get permission to photograph or video record professionals as he already does. (5)Hey! I love the idea of other people paying Mark's entry fee or of him not having to pay to get in. We are both retired on partial pensions and it really would help if his entry fees were waved since he spends countless hours keeping the website up-to-date and full of photos (and I spend too much money on belly-dancing!)
Please feel free to share your ideas whatever they are. It's helpful to hear how different people feel and their remedies for the situation.

Siobhan · Joined: 01 Apr 2008 Posts: 6

Keep up the brilliant work you do Mark and Connie

There isn't a woman among us that hasn't at some time looked at a photo or video clip of ourselves and cringed, wishing we were taller/thinner/curvier/ Mona Said, and that please-god-no-one-else-on-this-earth-ever-sees-it!! - it's just human nature. What's important is that all us hafla and event dancers get up there to share dances with friends, have a good time and make people smile. Photos or even film serve as lovely mementos of the time spent doing that, and you do a great service to us by taking them and putting them on the LBD website.

Wink

demolitia · Joined: 11 Nov 2008 Posts: 2

Here here!! So, all in all a good end??? Please keep up the good work Mark & Connie and everyone else at lincoln. You guys are so much fun and I wish there was more of it!

A personal note to the camera man, Thank You for taking the initiative and the photos x
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Im so mad about BTS!!!It Rocks!!

admin · Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

Thanks Demolitia,
I hope it's not the end of the thread yet, I plan to keep it open until the end of November so more people can have their say if they want it.

Contrary opinions are also welcome!

I'm too busy on a big, new, surprise project to have time to work on a photographic policy right now anyway.

(By the way, I can't figure out who you are ... put me out of my misery and send me a private message or an email please!)

PaulineQu · Joined: 03 Apr 2008 Posts: 6 Location: Nottingham

Just a quickie. . . . . . . . we are all captured on camera around 135 times a day, in our cars, shopping, at leisure centres, in the street etc etc. Who knows what happens to those images? Just because they may be captured by figures in authority doesnt necessarily mean they wont be used or abused. I wonder if those people objecting to having their images used also send out 135 letters a day asking for their image to be destroyed. . . . . . . . . . .
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Be Afraid.......

hothips · Joined: 13 Nov 2008 Posts: 1 Location: N.E. Lincolnshire

I think it would be a terrible shame if you were to stop taking pictures and videos during haflas.

I for one frequently visit the LBD website following a hafla. If I have danced at a hafla, its great to see the footage of yourself performing from the audiences prospective. If it is flattering footage you know your time and effort paid off and if its not your best you can observe the bits you didn't like and improve on that for next time.

If you dance in the public arena, you must accept that people will film, or photograph during performances. Most people have cameras on their mobile phones these days, are we to expect these to be handed in on your way in to a hafla.

For those who do not wish to be filmed, what about the flip side? There are some of us who love to be filmed. Are we to be deprived of this because of a few. If you don't want to be filmed just dance at class or at home and let the rest of us enjoy the public domain!!!

twinkle toes · Joined: 30 Mar 2008 Posts: 7

Having read and considered everyone's comments so far on this topic I find myself feeling rather controversial! SORRY!!

I have spent many years in the theatrical domain and worked professionally for some time (since before I left college and I'm now an ageing mid 40's). Video clips and still photographs are really quite different subjects. Photograph copyright belongs to the person taking the photo and not the subject in the photo (unless the subject is paying for those pictures and negatives, therefore purchasing copyright). However videos are not still images and when filming a choreography that is copyrighted the person filming and publishing is in breach of that copyright. All my choreo.s are copyrighted and my workshop's and handouts are also copyrighted.

That doesn't mean I wouldn't give permission for them to be filmed and published but I may like to know for what purpose before I say yes!

Having said all that in the case of Mark and LBD I think we know what his work will be used for and his intentions. GO MARK!!!

You Tube, however, has a little wider more varied audience and I'm not sure I would be happy with people publishing 'randomly' either me or my students on here with out asking, this I have still to consider in more depth before I'm decided.
xx

admin · Posted: Fri Nov 14, 2008 3:00 pm Post subject:

Thank you Twinkletoes, that's what this thread is all about, getting different perspectives! Very Happy

I hadn't considered the question of choreography.

Edited to add:
There's also the music copyright to be considered with video clips. Hmmmmmmmm.....

admin · Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2008 10:36 am Post subject:

I posed this question on a couple of the UK.Tribe.net forums and here are some responses from people who don't know me from Adam.

Hi Mark

This is a tricky one. Personally I wouldn't do it either with photos or video clips. Richard (my hubby) often videos at haflas and takes photos. We always ask folks before we publish on our website or onto tribe or youtube. We ask people to let us know if they don't want to be videoed or have photos taken. Usually we know folks so would contact the troupe leader if we wanted to publish later. Could you maybe ask whoever is organising the hafla to let people know that they'll be videoed and that it might be published, asking them to stop you if they're not happy?

I take a sheet of proofs into class and ask people to cross them through if they don't want them used. It works well and has gained people's trust.

Having said all this, I'm not too fussed if people publish photos of me but I do prefer if they check videos with me first. As Pedralta is now producing DVD's there are copyright issues around recorded music and it's just nice to be asked. Also the trouble is when you cock your dancing up (we all do from time to time) and it's live, it's over in an instant. If it's recorded it's there for all eternity.

Some women have backgrounds where domestic violence has been a problem and they are understandably very uncomfortable, even afraid of having their photos published. I met a young dancer in Spain, with such a background ,who was absolutely livid that someone had put a photo of her dancing on the internet.

Some women from a minority backgrounds are given a very hard time, by their own community, for dancing and would not want anyone to know. While they feel safe within the dance community but they don't always tell their family about their hobby.

I'm sure most dancers really appreciate your time and trouble Mark. I know how long it takes to go through footage and edit, matching sound etc. The majority of dancers would be thrilled that you wanted to show off their performances, after all it's very flattering.

But to avoid zils at dawn, I think it's always best to ask. Smile

(By Donna)

My husband takes photos at events and they are offered to the organsers and to individuals to use as they wish. We know we can trust these organisers to use them properly and the performers all gave permission to be photographed.
We have made a DVD of our show presented recently and it is for the performers only. They have been told only if everyone in your scene agrees can that particular scene be put up on a web host. Again everyone knew a DVD was being made and was happy to be filmed but any event I put on will not have a DVD for sale to the public or even the audience and we ask dancers to ask anyone they lend the DVD to to respect our wishes. I for one would object very much to be put on Youtube. I am not ashamed of my dancing but it is for me and for those I performed for at the time.
I know one group of dancers are happy for their "scene " to be shown. they are pro. dancers and there is a point to them promoting their skill.
I think it also important that comments are disabled as these can be vile stemming from the ignorant and malicious . Nice as it is to get compliments belly dancers are targets for the sad little souls who lurk to be nasty.
So I 'd say make sure every dancer you film has given you permission to do so in the first plce and happy that you expose them to the world.

(By Liz)

Hi Mark,

I just wanted to add more comments to your debate. Unfortunately I have experienced people video me performing and then make up copies for their friends. Later I have heard someone say 'Oh I saw you in such a such a video' and I haven't even seen a copy! As a dancer, you want any film of you to present your dance in the best light and if you are not happy with a performance you want to have control over your image. I have also experienced people using video to copy a performance that I have done...but thats just silly because I usually improvise anyway!!!!
When we [me and my firend Diane Petty] present shows we have a strict policy of no videoing except by the offical videographer...this is partly because we usually go on to sell a copy for charity (with all the associated licences). You wouldn't go to a theatre or cinema with a video camera! I also run haflas down here in Dorset and at those we ask any videographer to ask permission of individual dancers before filming them. We leave it up to the camera man and the dancer to negotiate terms!

Hope this helps!

Ellie

admin · Posted: Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:21 am Post subject: Humble Pie

I hate being wrong! Custard and ice cream don't make humble pie taste any better.

However, Nicola Atkin has pointed me to the appropriate legislation on copyright and I am definitely, gloriously and publicly wrong.

In a nutshell and removing all the legalese: .... Still photos are in fact and in law a completely different kettle of warthogs from video clips and movies. I was right that photos taken in a public place are fair game, however when it comes to public performances, video clips are NOT fair game. The performers own the performance (nothing to do with the choreo or the music, those are separate issues) and thus if I or anyone else takes a video clip of a performance without the permission of the performer(s) and publishes it in any way they are breaching the performer's copyright.

I have already emailed the person who passed on the complaint with my humble apology and I unreservedly repeat that apology here. As the old saying goes: "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

Mark Embarassed